[Discussion] Flawed canon and "bad" characters

[anenko.livejournal.com]

Who are your favourite "guilty pleasure" female characters? The ones who aren't good examples of what can be done with female characters, but who you deeply love anyway?

Have you spent hours creating backstory for a female character whose sole purpose in canon is to provide eyecandy for fanboys? Do you feel wildly passionate about a woman from a badly written, sexist series? Is your OTC a woman who died in the first episode of a new series, before the opening credits even began to roll?

Comments

[some-stars.livejournal.com]

Niki's storyline on Heroes made me so angry, I couldn't even watch it my first time through the series. After the first couple episodes I started fastforwarding through her scenes. And now she's my absolute favorite of the whole show, even though those first few episodes turned out to be practically the high points of her "arc," such as it was.

They just fucked up SO BADLY, you could SEE where the writers just stopped giving a shit and elbowed her aside and then come season two you could almost hear the producers thinking, "shit, Ali's contract isn't up yet? just write the same story over again, nobody will notice!" She had so much potential, and such an AMAZING actress, and--it's almost masochistic that she's my favorite now, because the show failed on almost every front with her, but I'm just mesmerized by how vibrant she is with potential and *untold story* in every scene. I just want that story, over and over again in every possible way.

[acaciaonnastik.livejournal.com]

I am a huge fan of Diana Villiers, from Patrick O'Brian's novels. It's not quite as bad as what you describe, but she is the Other Woman, the Faithless Hussy, over whom the central pair of guy buddies nearly come to blows. She'll occasionally get a bit of sympathy, but mainly she exists to give Stephen Maturin even more excuses to angst, she blows hot and cold over him as plot and author's whim require, and she's only doing "good" when she abandons her own goals in favor of his emotional well-being. Ultimately, she gets a bridge dropped on her (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DroppedABridgeOnHim) when she crashes a carriage and dies, despite how wonderful a driver she'd always been before.

And I love her to pieces. I love the way she doesn't immediately go mushy over her Designated Love Interest. I love the way she knows what society expects of her but would rather just run around India in her silk trousers and shoot things. While having as much casual sex as she can get away with.

[gelliaclodiana]

I adore Diana! I have little sympathy for people who do not adore Diana, really.

I have this whole rant about O'Brian and his attitude toward her; what I suspect is that she's a character who got away from him, so he killed her.

[acaciaonnastik.livejournal.com]

Yay! Another fan! I used to write pages-long essays in her defense on this forum I went to. I was going to do a fanmix for her for this, but I lack sufficient applicable songs.

I think that's pretty much spot-on. He did have that nasty habit of assessing the value of women solely on the basis of their treatment of their men- even docile chaste Sophie comes in for that. I was always a bit puzzled by the way the sympathy level sharply dropped... I can't help but wonder if POB had a bit of Creator Breakdown around that point? I recall he also killed Bonden, who was never anything but puppy-dog loyal...

[gelliaclodiana]

I suspect that all the things I really love about Diana -- her complete resistance to commitment, the way she's all about pleasing herself and completely ignores every social expectation for as long as she can -- were things that O'Brian did not mean for me to love. (I also find it interesting that apparently in his real life O'Brian was something of a bolter -- IIRC he abandoned his family at one point -- but that's the behavior he puts onto Diana. Which I know is crawling with bad biographical interpretation, but it's hard to resist.)

I do suspect that he ran out of things to do with Diana -- after 21 books and the long year! -- because he couldn't let Stephen be happy with her. Which just seems odd to me, because it did seem to me that both characters had reached a point where that made sense for them.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

Martha Jones was apparently brought in to be a servant to the Doctor and placeholder until he could get over (pretty blonde young dependent) Rose. The only character arc the writers could come up with for her was a humiliating unrequited crush on Ten. (The writers failed on the race front with her, too, showing a super-creepy predilection for putting her and her [also black] family into maid's uniforms.) But I loved her anyway--she was smart and brave and great in crises (one of those characters who actually say what you're thinking as the plot unfolds), and she didn't buy into all Ten's relentless self-mythologizing. I'm glad she's getting another shot on Torchwood.

[muccamukk]

But not that you're bitter, or anything. -g-

God, hated, hated, hated what they did to Martha. She never got a story of her own. It especially pisses me off considering how good a lot of the female characters in series one. It's not that they can't write women, it's just that they totally decided not to. And have said so.

[counteragent.livejournal.com]

Yay for Martha! I cheered when she barked out the bones of the hand. And I LOATHED the unrequieted love thing. Felt forced and annoyed me.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

Martha is made of win.

She WALKED THE EARTH for a YEAR, telling a story and sowing the seeds of victory. Yeah, eat me, Rose. All you did was get possessed by the Tardis and let go of a handle.

[gwynevere1.livejournal.com]

Not that you aren't entitled to hate Rose, but is this really the forum for those views, considering that the entire point of this community is to celebrate female characters?

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

I actually don't hate Rose at all.

I just tend to hate the privilaging of Rose I've noticed in the fandom, that's all.

Martha is awesome, yet she's all about being compared to Rose as lesser, even in canon. It's shortchanging the excellent character the show created.

[livii.livejournal.com]

Agree with the above statement; this is awfully uncalled for, here.

::likes both characters a lot::

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

I also like Rose.

I don't like the fandom's tendency to love her and not-like Martha, and to constantly compare her when they are different individuals.

[puritybrown.livejournal.com]

Wordy McWord. Martha was made of win and awesome and I fell in love with her instantly -- and I couldn't see why the writers didn't love her as much as I did. (Or the Doctor, come to that.)

I loved Rose during the first two seasons, but now when I watch first or second-season episodes, all I can think is "This would be so much cooler if Martha was in it!"

Edit: And actually, isn't Rose another example? She started out as a plucky, brave, independent young woman who wanted a life with more to it than working in a shop, living with her mum, and eating chips with her boyfriend. She was great. She became a sodding Time Goddess, for crying out loud! Then in the second season, she became increasingly wrapped up in the Doctor, to the point where she couldn't seem to imagine a life without him, and referred to the day she was separated from him as "the day I died". What the hell?

[life-on-queen.livejournal.com]

Wordy McWord. Martha was made of win and awesome and I fell in love with her instantly -- and I couldn't see why the writers didn't love her as much as I did. (Or the Doctor, come to that.)

I thought the writers did love Martha - after all, she becomes her own Big Damn Hero in a way Rose never did (except maybe in the first episode) - she walked the Earth for a year! Dude!

What I do think was made of fail was the unrequited love - not because the Doctor didn't love her back - but because they went there at all. Seriously - chance to tool around the galaxy and you're only going to go because you fancy the guy driving? That is utterly Made of Fail, which is why I loved Martha's "I'm too good to pine after you speech."

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

I have loved Catwoman and Wonder Woman since I was a child. In fact, all those DC girls who were merely created as eyecandy or as somebody's kinky bondage fetish.

Sadly, seeing they are still usually written by fanboys, they are ordinarily horribly, horribly mishandled. But they have the potential to be awesome, and sometimes are despite their writers.

Brubaker's stint on Catwoman was pretty solid, but not perfect. I wish they would give her a woman writer who could really write noir and grit and women as human beings - not the mysterious irrational OTHER so many of the writers seem to view them as.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

My favorite in that regard was SELINA'S BIG SCORE, which was an all-Darwyn Cooke effort.

[life-on-queen.livejournal.com]

Most recently? Sarah Corvus on Bionic Woman - there was so much potential in the character as presented in the first four episodes and then they dropped it like a hot potato and replaced it with dewey-eyed heroine in improbable footwear - she's supposed to be an ass-kicking secret agent-type. Do you see Sarah Connor running around in heels? No. But, back on topic, in my head, Sarah Corvus is the true hero of that show.

[forodwaith.livejournal.com]

Oh, me too. I didn't think much of the supposed leads on Bionic Woman, but I would happily have watched the Sarah & Jae show for many more episodes. Loved her unapologetically pissed-off attitude.

[cereta.livejournal.com]

My newest (old) obsession, Jessica Fletcher. She's kind of a busybody (who am I kidding: total busybody) who refutes attempts to call her "Ms" (she'll take a Maine Miz, though). She embodies several stereotypes of older women. And really, you should run when you see her coming.

But she worked her whole marriage. After her husband died, she became a whole new woman. And never, not once, does she doubt that everyone from a local sheriff to an FBI agent should listen to her insights. She will by-God take charge of a situation and take no prisoners.

And she puts up her own storm windows. I really like that.

[serrico.livejournal.com]

In the world of House, I've always thought Cameron was dealt a pretty poor hand. She was pigeonholed pretty early on as House's cares-about-everyone opposite to whom he should (*obviously!*) be attracted, when to *my* eyes, the most compelling aspect of her character was the way she mirrored Wilson: she was a person who needed to be needed, yet unlike Wilson, she purposely put herself into relationships that had a definite expiry date (her husband who was dying when she met him is the most obvious example, but the sex-only relationship with Chase counts, too: she thought she might have contracted HIV when she first bedded him). After her s1 storyline--which turned her into a deeply unprofessional predator, basically, who kept chasing House despite the myriad number of reasons why such a chase *actually made for problematic story*--she's had a few minor subplots, but always as a adjunct to House, Chase, or Foreman. And, of course, this season, we're seeing next to nothing of her.

My love for the original characterisation of Smallville's Lana Lang is not a secret; I think I may be almost alone in preferring the early-season Lana who was hopelessly mired in small-town mundanity to the Successful Businesswoman/Ex-Luthor/"I'd Kill To Help You, Clark" version we're getting now. I think there was *so much* story to be told by keeping Lana small-town-centred--because to tell that story, the show would've had to explore who Lana was as a person *and* as the keynote of the life Clark chooses to give up when he becomes Superman, despite his great love of that life/Lana. Such a story wouldn't have needed her to remain small--it would've needed to give her *detail*.

Pretty much all the female characters on Heroes, but especially Claire, Niki, Heidi and Monica. I'm sure I don't need to explain myself, here. *g*

I really wish Supernatural hadn't given up on Jo so friggin' quickly. They had a good actress, they had a good character concept--but, of course, they also had no interest in putting Jo on a level playing field with the boys, and immediate poor reception from some rabid viewers, so *obviously* dropping her like a hot potato was their best option. *eyeroll*

I...could go on. But maybe I'll stop here.

[geekturnedvamp.livejournal.com]

And you haven't even touched on the soap operas yet!

[serrico.livejournal.com]

Oh, god.

Yeaaaaaaaaah. Where to even *begin* with the soap operas? (No, actually, I know where I'd begin: Alexis. Followed up by Laura, then Lulu, then Kate, then Epiphany [freakin' HELL, writers, COME ON], then Robin, then Georgie, then Tracy then Faith then...)

I'd probably work in a tirade on the dumbass closing shot of the credits with all the guys in tuxes, too. Wherefore the women? WHEREFORE??

...but, see, this is why I stopped where I did. 'Cause once the discussion begins on women-in-soaps these days, it will NEVER END. *bitter*

[geekturnedvamp.livejournal.com]

I KNOW. I think the only thing that could possibly top the biterness of the women-in-soaps discussion might be the women in mainstream comics discussion, but maybe not *sigh*. (Man, I had a moment of deja vu as I typed this, and I would bet money I have probably said the exact same thing in your comments at least once!) And now I wish I had thought to ask you to do a post pimping the (past) awesomeness of the women in our favorite soaps.

[serrico.livejournal.com]

And now I wish I had thought to ask you to do a post pimping the (past) awesomeness of the women in our favorite soaps.

Eh, I'm not sure I would've had time this go-round to do the soap ladies justice, anyway. But run this puppy again at some point, and I will definitely schedule time to do a roundup of the GH Women Who Rock(ed). (Because there used to be so *many*! Sigh. Bitter, bitter sigh.)

[rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

I love Cameron... I think she did get short shrift from the writers and definitely from the fandom. I think she did improve as far as realizing that she needed to get over House or at least take a more mature approach to her feelings but then she was gone. :P

[serrico.livejournal.com]

One of the things that kills me about this season is the way they kept suggesting--very obviously--that Cameron still has Issues when it comes to House (and when it comes to her relationship with Chase)...but due to the new guys, there's no opportunity to explore meaningful character arcs for any of the old guard (*potentially* excepting Foreman, who we at least still get to see every week), so these Issues will apparently never have anything made of them. Not that I'm hugely eager to revisit one of the most ill-advised workplace "romances" in the history of ever...but still. You know?

[rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

I agree. I have to admit I like House/Cameron in fanfic myself, but I don't really want them to go back there in canon (unless they could do a much better job). But this way it's even worse because they want to hint around that she still likes House, not explain what's going on with Chase one way or the other, and pretty much ignore her otherwise. I never held out much hope that they'd develop much about her besides the non-relationship with House, but this is very frustrating.

Maybe she'll start dating 13. OK, probably not.

[lilacfield.livejournal.com]

Haruno Sakura from Naruto. Before the timeskip she's part of the background more often than not, after the timeskip she's stronger and more capable, but tends toward being a mini-Tsunade. It's inevitable, I know, but still. (On the same vein, I don't really like the original Team 7 to be portrayed as younger versions of the legendary Sannin - I prefer them to be themselves) But she's very human, and I adore her to bits for that.

Silent Hill 4 spoilers here:

[rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

Well, I've already posted about this here, but I have to mention Cynthia Velasquez from Silent Hill 4. A more cynical person might say she exists to look really fanservice-y, offer a guy sex, and then have a brutal death. (This happens fairly early on in the game, and it's not much of a spoiler to say a Silent Hill character dies.) In my fics she's a writer, or I convert her into a main character who is the antagonist. I'm not saying everything I've written about her was terribly high-minded and I tend to write sex in fics about her, but... I love her and I like thinking of her as a complete person. (To be fair to canon, there are also several male characters who exist only to have shocking deaths, but Cynthia's was kind of extreme and sexist.)

Eileen Galvin from Silent Hill 4 isn't exactly the greatest example of what can be done with a female character either, being a victim/"damsel in distress" (though I often defend her canon role). But I love her too and sometimes pair her up with Cynthia.

I have to admit therea are many times when I hear that a character is "there for the fanboys" that I feel like saying "Well, then slap my ass and call me a fanboy." (Rikku from Final Fantasy X comes to mind.) But usually I actually see something in canon about the character too, and actually like their portrayal... though sometimes maybe it's more in my own mind than I would like to admit.

I'd also add Jessie from Pokemon. Pokemon characters tend to be one-dimensional, and Jessie's pretty shrewish on top of that. (Though she had a couple of really nice backstory episodes, actually.) She's also incredibly vain, and the fact that her male counterpart is even more vain only offsets that partly. But I love her to death and at one point spent much time trying to give her more of an emotional range than canon usually did.

[copracat]

Modesty Blaise. A character invented for strip comics in the sixties is going to have characteristics that might make you wince, but I love everything about her: her not quite perfect beauty, her almost super-hero fighting skills and her General-worthy strategising and tactics, her encyclopedic knowledge, that she achieved crime world domination by age 26 and retired to become a part time good guy, her loving platonic relationship with non-sexual life partner, Willie Garvin, her only close long-term relationship.

I adore the pulp-style novel titles: Last Day in Limbo, The Impossible Virgin, Night of Morningstar, A Taste for Death!

She owns a flat in Paris! A villa in Malta! Not only is she a fighting machine of death, she can carve gems, is a crack shot, speaks ten languages (only six fluently!) and has a bit of a weep after the tough jobs, but she only weeps on Willie.

Honestly, I wouldn't bear any of this in a modern novel.

[rez-lo.livejournal.com]

Yes! And I was really afraid to watch the 2004 production of My Name Is Modesty (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0347591/), but I loved it. Kind of a lot.

[copracat]

I saw the movie with Terrence Stamp as the queerest Willie Garvin ever! I was too timid to watch My Name Is Modesty but I may now, at your recommendation.

[muccamukk]

Pretty much all the women on Hercules: The Legendary Journeys, really, but especially his first wife Deianeira. She of course got stuffed into the fridge in the first regular episode, but what we saw of her in the TV movies was wonderful. She was funny, smart, sexy, didn't let Hercules impress her all that much, and totally got him and his insecurities. In my mind, I've always had an AU where she and the kids live, but she gets sick of him being a lousy farmer, does it all herself, and he sends him out to do the hero stuff before he drives her nuts.

Also in that show: Gina Torres as a pirate queen, Claudia Black as Cassandra, Michael Hurst as the Widow Twanky, Lucy Lawless as Xena (obviously), and a number of other cool women. The show was cheesy, but it did women well.

Speaking of cheesy, I always had a bit of a thing of Shalamar from Mutant X, which was a terrible, terrible X-Men rip off, but I watched it anyway pretty just for her.

[forodwaith.livejournal.com]

All the women in Lord of the Rings, but especially Arwen. Fangirls usually get the Eowyn love (many of us having imprinted on her at an early age) but look at you kind of funny when you try to make a case for Arwen as being worth notice.

Tolkien didn't do anything with Arwen other than make her a good-conduct prize for Aragorn. I figure someone thousands of years old, raised by powerful rulers and magic-users, had to be a more interesting character than a kewpie doll.

OTOH, it's heartening in a way that she's only a cipher -- at least I can read all kinds of cool attributes & backstory into her without having to push back against bad characterization. She's not badly drawn so much as a blank slate.